16:00:35 <x1sc0> #startmeeting
16:00:35 <IZBot> Meeting started Tue Mar 26 16:00:35 2019 UTC.  The chair is x1sc0. Plugin info at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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16:00:48 <x1sc0> hi all, welcome to the QA meeting
16:00:51 <x1sc0> who is around ?
16:00:58 <specing> I am around
16:01:11 <specing> on my bicycle, doing circles around you
16:01:31 <djredaux> sitting in here also.
16:01:34 <x1sc0> hi there, firt time in the meeting ? welcome!
16:01:40 <x1sc0> djredaux, hi there
16:02:00 <djredaux> x1sc0: howdy
16:02:22 <x1sc0> anyone else ?
16:02:46 <x1sc0> buovjaga, bearon, raal, around ?
16:03:10 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> I'm here
16:03:18 <x1sc0> hi kompi
16:03:25 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> hello all
16:03:29 <lo-qa-tg> <B​uzeaBogdan> I am here also
16:03:54 <x1sc0> hi Buzea
16:04:12 <x1sc0> so let's get started
16:04:22 <x1sc0> first off, as you know Bugzilla is down
16:04:25 <bearon> hey
16:04:36 <x1sc0> infra is working on this, but it might take a while
16:05:21 <bearon> cool, no bugs reported in the meantime ;)
16:05:34 <lo-qa-tg> <B​uzeaBogdan> 😁
16:05:44 <buovjaga> I am around
16:05:46 <x1sc0> yep, that's true :D
16:06:06 <x1sc0> eih buovjaga, good you are here for the next topic
16:06:12 <x1sc0> #topic BZ contributors group access
16:06:27 <x1sc0> so I've been thinking about this recurrent task
16:06:57 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> what is it?
16:07:25 <x1sc0> I think I could automate it, the same way I do when someone is new in Bugzilla
16:08:07 <x1sc0> so, if someone is active in X number of bugs in the last year for instance
16:08:07 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> who will be in these groups?
16:08:39 <x1sc0> we can add this person to the group and send them an email
16:09:08 <buovjaga> @Kompilainenn the contributor group gives access to priority and severity
16:09:15 <x1sc0> I also think we could limit a bit what normal users can do
16:09:29 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> ah, ok, thx
16:09:32 <buovjaga> + QA contact, but I don't think we use that anymore
16:09:33 <x1sc0> so being part of this group has more meaning
16:10:08 <x1sc0> and we avoid the problems we had in the past with the severity/priority wars...
16:10:34 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> good point
16:10:55 * x1sc0 is interested in buovjaga's opinion on this
16:10:58 <buovjaga> well, I am of the opinion that taking edit rights away from problematic users is better
16:11:23 <buovjaga> and Xisco has specs on how to do this (hoping the way is doable)
16:11:33 <djredaux> if you use a automatic script to add accounts when the cross some threshold of activity, would you also do that on the other end and automatic them leaving the group after a defined period of inactivity?
16:12:35 <x1sc0> djredaux, it's not automatically added, I would get notify the person could be added
16:12:52 <x1sc0> s/notify/suggested
16:12:55 <djredaux> ah, I see - thanks
16:14:37 <x1sc0> buovjaga, yep, that's another option, I just want to discuss the different option we have before taking action
16:15:27 <buovjaga> taking away editing rights requires less action from us than giving more rights
16:15:50 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> I think better to have general options for all user by groups
16:15:53 <x1sc0> yep, that's a good point
16:16:20 <buovjaga> if we have restricted rights per default, we have to do more work, all the time... taking rights away is a very rare event, maybe once or twice per year, or zero
16:16:34 <x1sc0> probably it's just me trying to make the group more atractive
16:16:50 <buovjaga> we don't have to market the group :)
16:16:56 <x1sc0> otherwise, there's not much difference between being a part of it or not
16:17:10 <djredaux> Are you perhaps seeing group membership as a 'carrot' like a 'badge'?
16:18:26 <x1sc0> buovjaga, yep, it's true it would be more work if we restrict it
16:19:01 <x1sc0> djredaux, probably it's the way I see, yes
16:19:25 <x1sc0> kind of a reward
16:20:01 <djredaux> Perhaps also adds a bit more to 'being invested' and that is a good way to help motivate people to continu.
16:20:30 <djredaux> But bouvjaga's point is important also.
16:21:24 <buovjaga> I found the system in Mozilla's BZ to be very unwelcoming for someone wanting to do serious triaging
16:21:27 <x1sc0> yep, I think I was wrong when I suggested the idea, actually the idea of limiting users' right was already discussed in the past
16:22:14 <x1sc0> then, I'll go for the limited group solution
16:22:28 <x1sc0> the one buovjaga suggested in the first place
16:23:12 <x1sc0> and back to the topic, I think using the script to see who is getting more active and might be part of the group might be a good idea anyway
16:23:29 <buovjaga> that is true
16:23:53 <x1sc0> ok, next topic
16:24:05 <x1sc0> #topic Wiki updates
16:24:34 <x1sc0> so, I see this page has been untouched for ages -> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings
16:24:43 <x1sc0> any idea on what to do with it ?
16:25:12 <buovjaga> update it?
16:25:27 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> who will be update it?
16:25:38 <x1sc0> anyone volunteers ?
16:25:41 <djredaux> Beyond updating links to meeting minutes is there anything that needs to change?
16:25:57 <buovjaga> or do you think such recurring things do not belong to the wiki?
16:26:35 <x1sc0> every time we have the QA meeting, I send the minutes to the QA mailing list
16:26:36 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> I think yes, meeting reports are not for wiki
16:26:39 <djredaux> Ah - I see there is other things that are out of date
16:27:10 <x1sc0> we can add the links to those emails too
16:27:21 <buovjaga> design team does it still https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
16:27:26 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> we can have QA wiki page for very important thing
16:27:49 <x1sc0> #link https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
16:27:53 <x1sc0> oh nice design
16:28:06 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> Heiko just copy your mail there
16:28:13 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> his mail*
16:28:44 <x1sc0> If anybody wants to start I can help as well
16:28:59 <x1sc0> but I don't want to do it all myself though
16:29:56 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> nobody want now
16:30:00 <djredaux> I'm not afraid to break the page..
16:30:05 <djredaux> ;-)
16:30:47 <djredaux> Want something similar to the design team, as far as the top box goes with a some schedule information
16:31:12 <x1sc0> I'm fine with that design
16:31:39 <x1sc0> QA meeting: last Tuesday of the month
16:31:59 <djredaux> and a link to the mailing list
16:32:11 <x1sc0> 17:00 CTE
16:32:12 <djredaux> and that it is on IRC
16:32:57 <x1sc0> you need to go through the archives in http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/QA-f3613148.html
16:33:36 <djredaux> x1sc0: for meeting minutes?
16:33:48 <cloph> #link QA mail archives https://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org/
16:34:44 <djredaux> cloph: yes better - thanks
16:35:05 <x1sc0> yep, that's better
16:35:12 <x1sc0> #link https://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org/
16:36:08 <x1sc0> djredaux, thanks for taking the lead here
16:36:16 <x1sc0> I'll help you with that as well
16:36:57 <cloph> #link https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
16:37:54 <djredaux> No problem - for now I'll just try to emulate the design team page (copy paste where I can for the look) so it should be fairly quick.
16:38:23 <x1sc0> yep, try to keep the relevant info from the old page if possible
16:38:51 <djredaux> I'll ask here on IRC if I have questions
16:39:21 <x1sc0> absolutely
16:39:42 <x1sc0> well, let's move on
16:39:45 <djredaux> should of said 'as' and not 'if' I have questions ;-) OK
16:40:22 <x1sc0> just a reminder, please add yourself or anyone else worth mentioning to https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/2qbepFYXXan4ief
16:41:03 <x1sc0> is anything cool happened during this month, please add it there
16:41:13 <x1sc0> then it will be mentioned the monthly report
16:41:26 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> I added some info today
16:41:42 <x1sc0> thanks a lot
16:42:12 <x1sc0> I'll publish the report next week
16:42:35 <x1sc0> probably I wont send weekly reports by email anymore
16:43:06 <x1sc0> since I took some time off, ( 5 weeks ago ) I haven't done it and no one has complained about it
16:43:24 <x1sc0> otoh, some people complained when I sent it in the past
16:44:31 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> no problem, but it needs make montly report more full
16:44:59 <x1sc0> I've added WFM last week
16:46:10 <x1sc0> if you think more info is needed, just let me know
16:46:28 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> ok, I'll think about this
16:47:01 <x1sc0> ok, next topic
16:47:20 <x1sc0> #topic QA development program with steps
16:47:36 <x1sc0> so buovjaga, I added what you mentioned yesterday to the agenda
16:47:56 <x1sc0> so we have a wider audience for discussion, if needed
16:48:06 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> =)
16:49:36 <x1sc0> buovjaga, still around ?
16:49:47 <buovjaga> yes, so as we get people, who have not used LibreOffice before and thus have no motivation based on their own use, they can't use their imagination to think of stuff to do
16:50:23 <buovjaga> these people are expecting us to tell them what to do
16:51:22 <buovjaga> in the past, when we got people who were LibreOffice users, we could say "just do what you want and what is fun", but this is not enough in this new situation
16:51:40 <x1sc0> yep, I agree
16:51:46 <buovjaga> therefore, we might write some "12 steps to happiness and personal growth" type of roadmap
16:51:59 <x1sc0> #idea "12 steps to happiness and personal growth" type of roadmap
16:52:23 <x1sc0> for reference, do you know any other project doing it ?
16:52:25 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> ahahah...very loud name
16:52:25 <buovjaga> like, do very simple confirmation of 100 reports, then start doing more complex stuff, etc.
16:52:36 <buovjaga> wow, Xisco just went and ran with the name :D
16:53:04 <buovjaga> loud and proud self-help program
16:53:23 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> of course
16:53:23 <x1sc0> I don't mean we have to use that name :D
16:53:29 <x1sc0> just for the minutes...
16:53:38 <buovjaga> it's in writing, we cannot change it now, it's final
16:53:52 <x1sc0> ok, i'm fine with it too :D
16:54:08 <buovjaga> ok, so I guess I will try writing something simple in the wiki
16:54:16 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> I already want look at it
16:54:50 <x1sc0> yep, can we have a draft in the wiki
16:54:55 <buovjaga> a related writing task I should do is write in more detail about manual regression testing (the phase before bibisecting)
16:55:09 <x1sc0> so we can take a look at it for next meeting
16:55:11 <buovjaga> I just wrote an email about it in private, so I could copy most of it
16:55:13 <x1sc0> so we can discuss it there ?
16:55:26 <buovjaga> yeah
16:55:47 <buovjaga> and I can even push the program to any contacts I get and see how they react
16:56:31 <lo-qa-tg> <K​ompilainenn> expirement on the live humans, omnomnom
16:56:58 <x1sc0> buovjaga, regarding the regression part, probably you can extend this https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugTriage#Step_7:_Regression_Testing
16:57:30 <djredaux> an aside perhaps: you used the line "we could say "just do what you want and what is fun", but this is not enough in this new situation" and I was curious as to what the 'new situation' is?
16:57:31 <buovjaga> yep, I will see how briefly I can write, so the text will not get too long
16:57:52 <buovjaga> djredaux: people coming through VolunteerMatch and having other motivations
16:58:00 <djredaux> Ah - thanks
16:58:19 <buovjaga> like getting items in their CV, if they are between jobs
16:59:06 <x1sc0> if we have something like: "Retest 10 [Component] bugs" it's also a way to get users familiar with the component
16:59:20 <x1sc0> e.g. retest 10 draw bugs
17:00:06 <djredaux> yes I was thinking about that also - this idea of learning (focusing on, perhaps) components in some depth
17:00:32 <djredaux> I'm looking forward to reading that draft also
17:01:05 <x1sc0> ok, let's wait for the draft and let's discuss it in the next meeting
17:01:25 <x1sc0> closing the meeting
17:01:32 <x1sc0> thanks everyone for attending
17:01:56 <x1sc0> and thank you very much for your contributions to the project
17:01:59 <x1sc0> #endmeeting