13:50:58 <colonelqubit> #startmeeting 13:50:58 <IZBot> Meeting started Wed Nov 25 13:50:58 2015 UTC. The chair is colonelqubit. Plugin info at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:50:58 <IZBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 13:51:10 <sophi> colonelqubit: I was there, but have work too :) 13:51:22 <colonelqubit> and we'll see if jphilipz is around -- I pinged him earlier as well 13:52:19 <jphilipz> colonelqubit: i'm here 13:52:32 <colonelqubit> jphilipz: oh, well even better! 13:53:12 <colonelqubit> Let's see... UNCONFIRMED is up to 553 again 13:53:59 <colonelqubit> As I mentioned earlier, we should consider having some kind of event to tackle UNCONFIRMED bugs and other backlog stuff during December 13:54:29 <colonelqubit> Perhaps bill it as another "hide out from the holiday activities you'd like to avoid..." :-) 13:54:38 <beluga_> yeah I didn't have time to triage properly now for a couple of days 13:54:49 <colonelqubit> BugHunting Session is the first week, so maybe 3rd week or so 13:56:06 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: is there thinking of a plan to gradually get more people involved? 13:56:31 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: yes, I'm hoping to chat with Italo and Karl a bit more about that this week 13:56:31 <beluga_> CorNouws: yes 13:56:44 * CorNouws knows it's hard work, but just mentioning now and then that "..." will not work in the end ;) 13:57:05 <colonelqubit> I'd definitely like us to start keeping better track of our volunteers 13:57:18 <colonelqubit> give them the opportunity to create accounts on some tool 13:57:19 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: beluga_: nice! Is there something that we could think about and share thoughts? 13:57:21 <beluga_> CorNouws: direct contact with email has been tried, I tried with ~98 BZ users.. now I would like an automatic message in BZ after the first couple of bug submissions + some other ways to lure them to IRC 13:57:35 <colonelqubit> and Charles previously mentioned some kind of gamification such as badges 13:57:46 <colonelqubit> beluga_: we could also look into 'badges' hooked up with Bugzilla 13:57:51 <colonelqubit> "Has triaged 100 bugs", etc.. 13:58:14 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: Is there something written down that we could think about and share thoughts and extend upon? 13:58:17 <beluga_> yeah, would have to manually issue said badges 13:58:24 <beluga_> CorNouws: yes 13:58:31 <beluga_> let me dig it out for you 13:58:49 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: I think one big piece is continuity 13:59:00 <colonelqubit> We meet a lot of people here, but only a few stick around more than a few days 13:59:03 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: Is there something written down that we could think about and share thoughts and extend upon? 13:59:10 <beluga_> CorNouws: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/September_16#Bugzilla_Automated_Messages 13:59:21 * colonelqubit smiles at beluga_ 13:59:25 <colonelqubit> that's one piece 13:59:46 <colonelqubit> If people have other suggestions, perhaps we can put them in redmine? 13:59:55 <colonelqubit> that can be a good way to keep track of them 14:00:20 <CorNouws> beluga_: thanks - good starter on that point. But talking about recruiting people, make then stick and happy etc usw, has many more aspects. 14:00:30 <beluga_> and my other small suggestion was to always show a short invitation (in BZ) to IRC to discuss bugs 14:00:34 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: indeed :) 14:01:10 <beluga_> CorNouws: that automated message in my vision would be shown in the BZ web page after submission, not emailed 14:01:28 <colonelqubit> beluga_: perhaps one of each? 14:01:48 <CorNouws> beluga_: thanks - I won't discuss details now. I am willing to look at (the start) of a plan and help with that. 14:01:49 <beluga_> colonelqubit: email as well? 14:02:12 <colonelqubit> yeah, I think that would be a good way to keep up the energy 14:02:21 <beluga_> CorNouws: well, I have done a lot of mentoring and we just have to keep up a culture of recruiting and mentoring and hope things will grow organically 14:02:27 <colonelqubit> Another piece: I think a short video featuring clips of members of the QA team could be a personal touch 14:02:49 <colonelqubit> Everyone gets emails, and it's easy to just read them and toss aside 14:02:51 <jphilipz> not that sure that gamification will do much for triaging 14:03:25 <colonelqubit> If we were to make a short video with say 6 or 10 of us just having a short clip about why we're involved in LibreOffice, I think that would put a much more human touch on things 14:03:31 <beluga_> it is true that gamification has a bit of a hype aura 14:03:48 <beluga_> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/page.cgi?id=weekly-bug-summary.html is our gamified thing right now :) 14:03:50 <colonelqubit> so maybe 45sec total, 5-6sec each. Super fast 14:04:19 <colonelqubit> jphilipz: I don't think that gamification is going to directly do much for triaging, but I think that it might help us *retain* some people more, if they see a goal dangling out there in front of them 14:04:24 <CorNouws> beluga_: you're doing great work - but it's not impossible you miss something ;) and working with a plan is an instrument to get at least more eyes and thinking on the subject 14:04:50 <beluga_> CorNouws: I'm just one man 14:04:56 <beluga_> that is the problem 14:05:01 <colonelqubit> For example, I definitely pay more attention to how much I walk since I turned on the pedometer on my smartphone and it tells me that I've completed X steps out of my daily 10,000 step goal. 14:05:32 <CorNouws> beluga_: that is not a problem, but you may want to use instruments that allow to extend beyond that.. 14:05:35 <colonelqubit> What about a daily report on bugs in and bugs out (triaged)? 14:05:36 <beluga_> I realized I can't get others to directly email BZ users so had to think of some easier way 14:06:07 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: thanks - I won't discuss details now. I am willing to look at (the start) of a plan and help with that. 14:06:24 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: oh sure, definitely 14:06:36 <beluga_> about 1/5 of the contacted persons did respond positively (said yes, even though they might not have started to contribute in actuality) 14:06:46 <colonelqubit> It's great for us to chat about these ideas now, so I have some more concrete ideas heading into my call with the Marketing folksies 14:08:02 * beluga_ has to leave office, bye 14:08:10 <colonelqubit> noooo 14:08:20 * colonelqubit wanted beluga's input re: our updated Keywords 14:08:36 <colonelqubit> Okay, we'll come back to that later 14:08:46 <colonelqubit> let's take a look at pending action items 14:08:50 <colonelqubit> #topic Pending Items 14:09:08 <colonelqubit> is DennisRoczek|afk here? 14:09:50 <colonelqubit> We had some great engagement at Fossetcon this past week. I had people sitting around the table on the floor, chatting with me 14:10:06 <DennisRoczek|afk> colonelqubit: somehow 14:10:22 <colonelqubit> I also got interest from two people (Florida, cali?) about helping to hold a hackfest or librefest. 14:10:47 <colonelqubit> The one in Florida is looking very on top of her game; offered to help recruit people for an event from multiple universities 14:11:03 <colonelqubit> That's definitely the kind of person who could also help us recruit for QA and other teams in general 14:11:30 <colonelqubit> DennisRoczek|afk: you have an ACTION item about " Work on wiki page for ODF formats/comparison (DennisRoczek)" 14:11:47 <colonelqubit> DennisRoczek|afk: There's also the tests for the Media Support wiki pages? 14:12:26 <DennisRoczek|afk> no, not really. not much time the last week. /me taken care of some private tickets on redmine (see your inbox!) 14:12:38 * colonelqubit nods 14:12:53 <DennisRoczek|afk> moreover i have some pet tickets regarding the wiki 14:13:11 <colonelqubit> Okay, we have some action items for Beluga, but he's gone for now 14:13:28 <colonelqubit> jphilipz: any updates? Have you gotten good feedback on your Google Doc yet? 14:13:41 <colonelqubit> (The action item was: ACTION: Make a simple page of things new QA should be aware of (jphilipz) ) 14:13:51 <jphilipz> colonelqubit: i think CorNouws might have been the only one to comment in it 14:13:56 <jphilipz> you still havent :( 14:14:33 <colonelqubit> jphilipz: yeah, sorry I haven't gotten to it 14:14:57 <colonelqubit> I've been in sleep deficit lately 14:15:04 <CorNouws> jphilipz: on what subject ? (sorry not reading all here) 14:15:12 * colonelqubit will try to read it over today before he crashes into slumberland 14:16:30 <jphilipz> CorNouws: simple page for new QA members 14:17:13 <colonelqubit> jphilipz: please share the Google doc w/Cor as well, and he can give you additional feedback 14:17:43 <CorNouws> jphilipz: hmm vaguely remember that .. 14:18:13 <jphilipz> let me grab it for you CorNouws, so you can reminisce on your comments :D 14:18:47 <colonelqubit> Okay, are there any other pending items to discuss? 14:19:24 * colonelqubit waves at raal 14:19:51 <colonelqubit> raal: just in time to join the meeting and use those smelly markers on the flipboard 14:20:12 <colonelqubit> (alas, we are not in the Real World) 14:20:18 <jphilipz> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CGhkvqZBg-G_uYJFiNS8-d-P2VjyDE8Z2-rtqM__VG4/edit?usp=sharing 14:20:35 <raal> colonelqubit: :-) hello qubit, sorry but this time of meeting is bad for me .. I cannot join, need to work.. 14:21:12 <colonelqubit> raal: no worries :-) 14:21:19 <colonelqubit> Okay, if we're pretty much done with the Pending items, let's move to the new ones 14:21:22 <colonelqubit> #topic New Items 14:21:27 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: just one remark on recruiting - speaking from experience: personal contact and genuine interst and helping out people is a key - additional tools and information and organizing work in a way that people can pick they like, get a positive feeling and are not drowning - are important after that. 14:22:39 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: I think that because we're a volunteer squad, and because of how spread out we are around the world, tooling to help us coordinate our involvement with volunteers is going to be a huge win for us 14:22:39 * sophi away for the board meeting 14:23:07 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: yes sure. 14:23:25 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: that'll help us to present a much more consistent face to the world 14:23:44 <colonelqubit> ok; new items 14:24:07 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: "people" are individuals that appreciate to be treated as such 14:24:37 <CorNouws> s/treated/approached 14:25:11 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: Sure, but to be super frank and honest, I don't know if we have enough energy/time available in the team right now to spend a ton of personal time with each potential recruit 14:26:04 <colonelqubit> once someone has proven his worth, we could spend more time and chat with him, engage more fully, etc., but it's going to be super-costly with time if we don't filter our methods in some fashion 14:27:27 <colonelqubit> Let's see... so what is on the docket 14:27:39 <colonelqubit> Here's a weird bug we ran across last week: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95905 14:27:41 <IZBot> bug 95905: LibreOffice-Writer enhancement/medium UNCONFIRMED New AutoCorrect emojis for Ruble sign and Hammer and Sickle 14:28:19 <colonelqubit> If someone would like to investigate, it'd be great to get that one crossed-off the list 14:29:06 <colonelqubit> Pedro had a couple of topics he wanted us to discuss 14:29:49 <colonelqubit> 1) Regressions make up 16% of our open bugs (according to the stats). What do we plan to do about it? 14:30:15 <colonelqubit> 2) "How can QA (Quality Assurance) and TDF motivate the Devs to worry about the consistency of the program?" 14:30:39 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: Any thoughts? 14:31:31 * jphilipz away to eat dinner 14:31:52 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: valid questions that I think need to be discussed at a mail list or so - with devs attending 14:31:57 <CorNouws> jphilipz: enjoy :) 14:32:26 <colonelqubit> fair enough; if mailing list seems like better venue, I'm fine with that 14:32:56 <colonelqubit> Okay, any other New Items we should discuss? 14:33:17 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: yes... I doubt if ti's going to help if we put down thoughts here. Or do you think it will? 14:33:20 <colonelqubit> steve-_-: any topics to address? 14:33:43 <steve-_-> huh? did I just tap into some form of meeting? 14:33:52 * steve-_- opens his beloved bugs list 14:33:58 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: Pedro asked for a discussion, so I figured I'd at least try to bring upp the topic 14:34:11 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: let me say"I would start with personal private interviews of developers to learn what can motivate or move them :) - this in addition we already know 14:34:30 <colonelqubit> I agree that esp. if we want to include the devs, the mailing list is a better choice 14:34:47 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: let us understand that as a signal of concern from Pedro - and I fully support him in that :) 14:35:01 <steve-_-> colonelqubit: verified state had been discussed in the bugtracker. unclear what policy is. mariosv has his own concept. but I can respect that and not touch his bugs. 14:35:15 <colonelqubit> And we do have the plans for a dev dashboard, which will hopefully provide more real-time (ish) information for devs, helping them to apply their time to the most relevant/important bugs 14:35:31 <colonelqubit> steve-_-: what do you mean 'verified state' ? 14:35:55 <steve-_-> of bugs. verified as in verified in master vs. verified = verified on all versions the fix went into 14:35:57 <steve-_-> not a big thing 14:36:24 <steve-_-> but I found it very odd for mariosv writing to me off-tracker and complaining about setting a verified on master bug on "verified" 14:36:26 <steve-_-> oh well... 14:36:47 <colonelqubit> Ah, I see 14:36:49 <steve-_-> other than that, I still hope we can direct web users to the new bugzilla wizard to get better bug reports. 14:36:57 <colonelqubit> unless I'm the reporter, I generally avoid setting things to 'verified' 14:37:20 <colonelqubit> I usually take things to RESOLVED WFM (or FIXED, if there's a patch), and then let OP VERIFY/CLOSE/etc... the bug 14:37:28 <steve-_-> colonelqubit: maybe a good policy and then again most bugs never get to that state(even if actually verified) 14:38:13 <steve-_-> we still have the find dialog issue on osx. #49853 14:38:15 <IZBot> LibreOffice-UI critical/highest NEW EDITING: Attempting paste/select all into find bar with Cmd-V or Cmd-A on OS X pastes into document not into search bar https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49853 14:38:26 <colonelqubit> Yeah, I believe I brought that up at least once 14:38:37 <colonelqubit> at some point it has to be a dev/devs who decide to apply time to fix it 14:39:03 <steve-_-> and the other new pet bug highest | critical osx is #90913 14:39:04 <IZBot> LibreOffice-LibreOffice critical/highest NEW OSX - very poor performance when first opening Finder dialog https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90913 14:39:15 <colonelqubit> k, I'll take a look at that bug in a bit 14:39:27 <steve-_-> yup. that's all from my side 14:39:50 <colonelqubit> Are there any other topics people wish to discuss? 14:41:43 <colonelqubit> I have two things to mention 14:42:15 <colonelqubit> 1) "As mentioned in the ESC call, it could be helpful to add a new Bugzilla Status that encompasses bugs that have been abandoned" 14:43:13 <colonelqubit> I've reviewed the discussion that's taken place on the QA and dev lists, and selected the new status of "INSUFFICIENT DATA" 14:43:20 <steve-_-> is that a good idea? 14:43:25 <steve-_-> sounds like a dupe of needinfo 14:44:06 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: jphilipz_dinner: put additional thoughts in the QA-starter-GDocs_septUpPage 14:44:44 <colonelqubit> steve-_-: well, it sounded like most people could live with that choice 14:45:22 <colonelqubit> steve-_-: but if you have a strong argument for something different? :P 14:50:35 <colonelqubit> okay, let's go with that for now 14:51:06 <colonelqubit> 2) I'm updating the Keywords, and I've filtered out a bunch of the most common Whiteboard tags 14:51:21 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: maybe I'm able to think/share some MAB for the coming ESC... 14:51:54 <colonelqubit> CorNouws: That's always appreciated. I do like to bring a solid 5-7 bugs to them ;-) 14:52:12 <colonelqubit> The devs mostly want to see bad things that affect our latest versions, master preferred 14:53:14 <colonelqubit> So the first question for your input is: Should keywords use hyphens (just-like-this) or wimpy camps (justLikeThis) ? 14:53:40 <colonelqubit> My inclination is to be consistent between Keywords and the Whiteboard, and to keep using wimpyCaps 14:54:20 <CorNouws> colonelqubit: plusOneForConsistency ;) 14:56:23 * colonelqubit smiles 14:56:57 <colonelqubit> Okay, the next part is to decide about which tags should go into Keywords. I have my own shortlist, but I wanted to share some more aggregate data and ask for your quick input 14:57:18 <colonelqubit> These are some of the most common whiteboard tags: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Qubit/Whiteboard-frequency 14:59:06 <colonelqubit> steve-_-, CorNouws, et al: It'd be great if you could take a look at that page and come up with a short list of what should go into the Keywords 14:59:51 <colonelqubit> and it would also be helpful to have some input on how we might group the Keywords, as well as present them in the docs so that they are much more accessible 15:01:27 <colonelqubit> Okay, that's it for my two items 15:01:36 <colonelqubit> steve-_-: anything else from your side? 15:02:20 <colonelqubit> raal returns... 15:03:07 <colonelqubit> raal: here's an aggregate list of whiteboard tags that could become Keywords: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Qubit/Whiteboard-frequency 15:03:20 <colonelqubit> raal: your input/suggestions on that account are appreciated :-) 15:04:46 <colonelqubit> #topic End Meeting 15:04:53 <colonelqubit> Okay, it's that time where we get ready to finish up 15:05:55 <colonelqubit> Our next BugHunting Session is at the end of next week, so put on your thinking caps and start recruiting new people to join us in testing 5.1 beta 1 15:06:03 <colonelqubit> Thanks, all! 15:06:14 <colonelqubit> #endmeeting